i have a question, (and yes, it’s related to religion)

just because someone is very very sincere and passionate about belief in something, does it give us to an obligation to respect that belief? even though the belief is utterly illogical and nonsense?

do you think it’s rude and impolite to ridicule or criticize it because it might hurts the feeling of the one who holds the belief sincerely?

if the answer is yes, what about someone belives passionately in occult?

if the answer is no, why do people ask for special respect to certain religious beliefs?(especially big 3 monotheism)

i look forward to an exciting discussion.

질문 순서대로 저의 답을 달겠습니다.
(1) No.
타인이 중시하는 종교를 반드시 “respect” 해야한다는 것은
마치, if you love me, love my dog. 와 같은 생각이라고 생각합니다.
/dog 주인/은 자기를 좋아하는 사람이 자기의 dog를 좋아하기를
원하는 것은 인지상정이나,
dog가 싫은 사람에게 그 dog를 좋아하도록 강요되어서도 안됩니다.

하지만, 좋아하지 않는다는 것은 싫어한다는 것과 동의어가 아니므로,
dog를 좋아하지 않는 다고 해서,
궂이 그 dog에게 가서, 발로 겉어찰 이유도 또한 없겠지요.
또한 dog를 가지고 있다는 이유만으로, dog 주인들을 hate 하는 것도
말이 안된다고 생각합니다.
물론 발로 겉어 차지 않는다고 해서, 그 dog를 respect한다는 것은 아닙니다.
다만 indifferent 할 뿐이겠지요.

(2) Yes, it is.
dog는 싫고, cat만 좋아한다고 해서, cat 주인이
dog가진 사람에게 가서, dog는 “야옹야옹”하며 짖지 않고,
“멍멍”하고 짖으므로 stupid하다고 말하는 것은 rude하다고
생각합니다.
하지만, dog가 남의 집의 잔디에 와서 똥싸고 가거나,
사람을 문다면, 당연히 비판하고, 시정하라고 dog주인에게
요구할 권리가 있겠지요. (이러한 요구는 cat주인이든, 다른 dog 주인이든
또는 아무런 pet이 없는 누구라도 자유로이 말할 수 있는 사회가
건강한 사회입니다.)

(3) 타인이 가진 dog가 불독이든, 치와와든, 사냥개이든,
그 주인과 친구가 되는 것은 dog의 종류와는 아무런 상관이 없습니다.
친구가 될만한 인간이라면, 그 집에 놀러 갔을 때, dog를
안 보이는 곳이 감춰 두는 센스를 가지고 있겠지요.
어떤 dog이던지 간에, 나의 삶에 나쁜 영향을 끼치지 않는다면,
(내 잔디에 똥싸거나, 가족을 물거나, 한 밤중에 시끄럽게
짖거나…..등등) 상관할 이유가 없겠지요.
(상관하지 않는다는 것과, respect은 다른 거라고 생각합니다)

(4) 왜냐하면, 인간은 자기를 좋아한다면, 자기의 모든 면을 좋아하기를
원하기 때문이 아닐까요?
나를 사랑한다면서, 왜 나의 잔소리는 싫어하는냐?
나를 사랑한다면서, 왜 내가 코 파는 것은 싫어하는냐?
와 같은 의미로서,
If you love me, You Should Love My DoG~
라는 것이겠지요.

SD.Seoul/
as usual, interesting thought, i appreciate your answer

my concern is that when we criticize or ridicule politicians, artists or other ideas, society seems to take it pretty comfortably. however, criticizing major religious beliefs, even with very mild ones, people tend to think it’s very very rude to do it.
isn’t it unfair?

just because someone is very very sincere and passionate about belief in something, does it give us to an obligation to respect that belief?

yes라고 생각합니다. 자신에게 있어서 자신의 믿음(종교건 뭐건 간에)이 소중한 만큼 타인에게 있어서는 타인의 믿음이 소중하겠지요.

even though the belief is utterly illogical and nonsense?

일로지칼하거나 난센스라는 것 또한 자신의 믿음에 근거한 것일 것이고 다른 사람은 다르게 생각할 수 있다는 것을 받아들이셔야 할 것 같네요. 곁다리로 새는데, 소위 혼음이나 목사에 의한 여신도 추행 등등도 그들의 관점에서 보면 일반인과는 사뭇 다른 생각을 가지고 있습니다.

do you think it’s rude and impolite to ridicule or criticize it because it might hurts the feeling of the one who holds the belief sincerely?
그렇지 않겠네요. 상대방 또한 (상대방의 믿음이 사기라고 생각한다는) 이쪽의 믿음을 존경해야겠지요.

if the answer is yes, what about someone belives passionately in occult?
통과

if the answer is no, why do people ask for special respect to certain religious beliefs?(especially big 3 monotheism)
잘 연결이 안되는군요. 저는 별로 그런 것을 느껴본 적이 없어서.

믿음은 어떤때는 상식을 초월하지요.

다음과 같은 분류가 편의상 해보죠.

1. 믿음은 우끼는 거다. (비논리적이고, 넌센스니까)

2. 믿음은 하나의 철학이다. (유교처럼)

3. 믿음은 생활의 일부이다.

4. 믿음은 삶의 모두이다. (다른 삶은 믿음생활 하기 위해서 존재한다.)

4번에 가까운 사람은 어떤 비평도 심각하게 받겠지요.

tracer 님의 질문은 이미 답을 정하신 상태에서 질문하셨기에 패스합니다.

Dreamin님의 답변이 참 재미있군요.

1. 믿음은 우끼는 거다. (비논리적이고, 넌센스니까)
—> 무신론자의 전형적인 모습.

2. 믿음은 하나의 철학이다. (유교처럼)
—> 종교를 과학으로 풀려고 하는 모습.. 예를 들면 tracer님, SD. Seoul님.

3. 믿음은 생활의 일부이다.
—> 저 같은 날라리 신자의 전형적인 모습.

4. 믿음은 삶의 모두이다.
—> 교회에 가면 꼭 만나게 되는 신앙깊은 분(?)들의 모습.

그리고, “믿음은 어떤때는 상식을 초월하지요.”라는 글을 읽으면서 ‘무례’라는 단어가 생각이 나는 군요. 결국, 무례한 종교인 혹은 신자들때문에 믿음이라는 단어가 좋지 않은 뉘앙스를 가지게 되는 군요…

만약에 “믿음은 어떤때는 인간의 능력을 초월합니다”라고 쓰셨다면 제가 좋은 의미로 받아들였을텐데요.

….!/
yes i pretty much have my own answer but asked because i wanted to listen to other people’s opinion about it. to start discussion, especially with believers.

3. 믿음은 생활의 일부이다. –> isn’t it something like, “i believe because believing is good for me.”? i don’t think it’s really being religious.

i think the conflict between religion and science starts from 믿음(faith:belief without evidence). and of course, 믿음 is the most important part in religion. i think it’s very dangerous and against human progress to say that faith is a virtue.

I don’t like talking about religion, but I think having religion is good because “believing is good.” I’ve seen many people who became calmer after having religion. I don’t really care what kind of religion they have if they don’t force other people to have the same religion. I respect other people’s religion (or more precisely, pretends to respect) because I could endanger my life otherwise (yes, I am a coward).

I sincerely respect good people regardless of their belief.

azumma/
i hope people with religion think same as you. not to intrude other people’s belief system.
but unfortunately, to become a truly religious person, you must convert(or kill) other people because their dogma say that it’s an obligation.

the problem with “i believe because believing is good” is that it doesn’t make the religious claim true. if you say, “i don’t care about the truth” then i have nothing to say.

믿음이라는 단어 자체에 “비논리적” 이라는 뜻이 포함 되어있습니다.
인간은 현실을 이해하기 힘들기 때문에 불안을 느끼게 됩니다.

믿음이라는 행위를 통해서, 현실을 스스로 이해할 수 있는 structure로 재편성하게 되어 심리적인 안정을 취할 수 있게 됩니다.

믿음은 종교뿐만 아니라 일상생활에서도 수없이 많은 믿음 있습니다.
믿음이 나쁜 것은 아니지만 그 믿음에 스스로 갇혀 버리는 경우를 경계하여야 할 것 같습니다.
믿음은 희망이라는 단어와 일치하지는 않지만 유사한 점이 많습니다.

defferance(데리다가 만든 조어), “차연”으로 번역 되는데 “차이”와 “연기(불교에서 말하는 인연)”의 앞글자를 따온 것입니다.
눈이 내린 길에 수레바퀴 자국이 나있다.
인간을 그 것을 보고 수레바퀴가
지나 갔다는 것을 알 수있다.
하지만 그 자국이 실제 수레바퀴는 아니다.(차이, 흔적)

해체

믿는 주체인 “나” 라고 하는 것이 존재 하진 않는데
무엇을 믿는지 그 대상이 존재하지 않는데 믿는 다는 것이 무엇인가?

온 곳도 없고 갈 곳도 없고 거할 곳도 없다.
산은 산이요 물은 물이로다.

ELE
122.101.242.x 너를첨본간부터 범부가 아니란것을 알었지만 너에 도에 경지가 이렇게 높다니. 가히.내가 너를 인정해줬던게 후회스럽지는않구나.
산은 산이요 물은 물이다.캬…역시 신선에 경지에 오른다는것은 인고에 세월속에서 바위에 긴 이낀처럼..누가 알리오 그 천년에 자리메김을..

주체가 나인데 객체를 논한들 무슨의미가.
물질에 존재 가치를 믿는것은 내마음속에 물질에가치를 인정해주기때문인것을
그러나.그 물질에 존재가치도 관념이란 객체를통해서 잠시 머물다 지나간 물질에 변형인것을.
너자신을 사랑하면 모두를사랑할것이고
너자신을 믿은다면 모둘르 믿으고 인정할것이다.
어찌 ~한낯..간사한 인간들이 믿음에 가치와 정도를 논하겠는가.
그 누가 인간을 아름답다고 했는가 ?
그속에 감춰진 드러운 똥들로 가득 뭉쳐진 찌꺼기는 보지못했단말인가 ?

tracer,
I don’t agree with you in “to become a truly religious person, you must convert(or kill) other people because their dogma say that it’s an obligation. “
In Christianity, the obligation is to tell the truth (of course, not all people think it as “truth”). To receive it or not is completely up to listeners. Also, although I don’t know much about Islam, the well-known “Quran or sword” is a wrong phrase devised by Westerners. I don’t deny there are people at the level of “enforcement,” but we can’t generalize from the radicals.

tracer,
I have a question for you. Because I went to church for all my life, sometimes I am really curious about the other view. I agree to your definition of faith, the belief without evidence. Now, suppose I say that you need “faith” to believe that God doesn’t exist, then what will you say?
Again, don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to criticize or something.

ajPP/
first, what’s the intention of “telling the truth” to other people? don’t you wish for them to convert into christianity? you just “tell” it without any intention of converting? in any case, it’s an interfering other people’s belief system.

and to your question,
technically yes, to say that I KNOW that God doesn’t exist need faith. because no one can prove of disprove God’s existence with scientific way(using evidences).

However, i would say it’s very very unlikely based on evidences.
think about it, you cannot disprove tooth-fairy either, but we say it doesn’t exist because the probability is so small, in common sense we discard it.

so i am agnostic towards christian(muslim, jewish) God, same as I am agnostic towards tooth-fairy.

ajPP/
i have a question for you too.
when and why did you decide to believe that Christian God and its dogma is the truth?
why not islam or judaism?(jainism, hinduism, you name it)
what if you picked the wrong religion?

and thanks to the calm and reasonable conversation, i appreciate it. and by no means i am offended or feeling intemedated.

tracer/
Why are you so interested in religion?

tracer,
I do often invite my non-Christian friends to come to church and sometimes explain about the gospel by myself. But I don’t think I interfere their belief system. I think most people share their feeling or latest news with their friends and it would not be interfering them. I think it’s the way of speaking that makes the problem, not the topic itself. Well, in some cases, I would agree that people get somewhat offensive when they deal with religion whether it’s legitimate or not.

tracer,
When I get some level of intelligence, probably in age around 3-4, I found that I am calling a woman mom and a man dad. I really didn’t have any evidences that they are really my (well, biological) parents, but I kept calling them mom and dad, and gradually with time, I came to an idea that it would hardly be false based on various evidences, which is not necessarily based on strict logic.

Similarly, I go to church since I was very young, and I got many evidences that the God the Bible is talking about does exist, which are again, not necessarily based on strict logic. Although you said the chance is very very unlikely, there are more people on earth who believe in creator God(not limited to that of Christian). I think those people would have similar experience. For tooth fairy, even if I start with believing it, I would soon drop the faith because I would not have the evidences.

Again, a question. Based on what evidences do you say it’s very very unlikely?

Most of time we have to respect a difference, now and then we could fight against a difference even to the death.

If others’ action based on their faith is not damaging your society physically, you’d better respect their religion no matter what. If it is destroying your society, you could fight against it even though you may be killed.

For most of religions, it seeks for peace but they don’t respect a slight difference each other so that, ironically, we are unable to stop such a killing cycle under the name of God for thousands thousands years.

Difference accompanying no physical offense, let us just respect it.
We respect a difference as we want to be respected.
You and I are not the ones who decide if their faith is logical or senseless.

You can make a fun of George W. Bush but can not make fun of black people or Muslims at this time of contemporary era. Hopefully, 10 yeasrs later, we can do it.
Now Tracer, you may be asking me why not. You may say unfair.

Tracer,
It is fair. Human being has made a significant progress on this for the last hundreds years.

That’s why now we emphasize, even at the elementary school, on “Freedom of religion, speech, thought etc…”

We have no other choices to live altogether without killing ourselves.

………./
i agree with your comment mostly. i agree that we should respect other people’s belief as far as they leave others alone. but to the extent that i respect other human idea and secular beliefs, my point was religion demand more respect from other people even though the religious idea is one of human behavior.(some might disagree). and raising this issue is a part of the struggle of human progress you mentioned.

“You and I are not the ones who decide if their faith is logical or senseless. ” –> i’d like to say people like you and i, human beings are the ones who decide the value of faith. even if it can’t be completely abslute decision, we should try hard to make that decision because then, who’d make the decision for us?

“It is fair. Human being has made a significant progress on this for the last hundreds years.” –> yes it has been a tremendous progress so far but not without human struggle and education, the struggle to correct nonsensical beliefs, absurd and hurting claims and demands. it has not been automatically grew from within us. that’s why i think we should keep bringing up the issue.

ajPP/
you started to call your parents mom and dad because they taught you to. and you didn’t have enough intelligence to examine the evidence to believe, you have animal instinct that follow what your parents tell you to do.(because it helps you to survive)
you came to a conclusion that there’s not enough reason to believe that they are not your parents based on evidence. if you decided that based on your evidence, you relied upon logic to believe it. i don’t know why you call it is not based on logic.

and yes, it’s true this time you believed Christianity dogma not based on logic, it is called faith. but my question was why you specifically chose to commit Christianity instead of other major religions, even though not you have enough intelligence to examine and compare.

there are still majority of people who believe. but when you think about it, it is much less compared to the number before the time of science.
there are many scientific studies that human being has biological nature to become religious. because we’re pattern-seeking, storytelling animals.(they are essential to our survival) it’s kind of an by-product of our history of survival. that’s why still so many people believe because they led to believe instinctively. but through reason and science, we could overcome so many nonsensical beliefs, with reason we survived, and now it’s time to use that reason to defeat illogical beliefs and progress.

you drop the tooth fairy idea because there’s not enough evidence. but what evidence there to make the existence of God and religious doctrine universal truth other than personal one?

ajPP/
it is hard to summarize the evidences in small space here, i’d rather recommend some elegantly written books about the subject.

“God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins
“God: the failed hypothesis” by Victor Stenger

atto/
because i am interested in the truth, because i believe that effort will make my life more meaningful.

I believe that we won’t be deluded on our faith easily, only if we constantly question ourselves that “I may be wrong in my faith and others maybe right.” “I am not who I am”. Jesus denied himself in a fact that “He is son of god.” Instead, He dissolved his life into a miserable human life. He said “I am who I am” but he came down to this messy world from the glory and was ended up with a miserable death. In his real life, He was not who he is. He was here to serve you, not to be served.

I consider his life as a perfect example of self-denial. Even God did that.
Jesus was crucified for us. Are we worthy for that?

I do not support a kind of religious people who have chips on their shoulder by insisting their faith is only way to obey to the God. Those people need to sit back and start thinking about a fact that they maybe have a total delusion of their God, they may not understand at all what their God try to say. Self-denial, Jesus did 2000 years aga, may give us a chance to respect others.

I believe that God created whole this world as a unity. Very fortunately, God gave us so much difference and diversity in his Unity. Harmonizing and respecting those differences are our responsibility. We must keep a Unity, created and intended by God.

You seem to get my point. I think I talked enough. Thanks for raising an issue.

tracer/
Do you think “the truth” is in religion?

atto/
as you could read from my post, i obviously think that religious claims are far from truth.

tracer/
If so, what good is there for you to ask questions/have interest about the subject which you think is far from truth?

atto/
to start the discussion, to understand each other and if possible, maybe influence each other’s thought(of course, under both parties consent)

people of religion claim that they know the the truth and try to influence other people’s lives based on their personal truth but i think it can’t be universal. this kind of closed and exclusive minded thinking is not benefitial to our progress. so i am concerned.